You already know what I feel about boycotts. While I have never denied the fact that they will work, they only make up one half, or even one third of the story.

Muslims must realise that in order for us to be heard, we need economic clout; and we need media exposure. We have, in Muslim lands, possession of a key asset the world over wants - oil. And yet, we have not managed to control it and let it be controlled by Americans, who are, to many, evil personified, never mind that we have Muslims in that country, and that not every Americans support Bush, and many Americans echo our cries for a Palestinian state and the end of Israeli occupation. In terms of the mass media, we have no control. We often leave it to others to tell our story for us - and with it, distortions which we find offensive, but even that, we keep to ourselves.

We can't just boycott and then hope for the best. If we really believe in making a difference, then we must also strive to provide alternatives. For instance : Starbucks operates on a franchise basis; so if we all shut Starbucks down, the first person hit would be the local manager, who could well be Muslim and is donating his earnings back to Palestine or some other similar cause. Question is - why did he choose to open a Starbucks franchise? Perhaps because of the name, the clout, the brand. Did we, as Muslims, offer an alternative for him? Was there a more 'politically correct for Muslims' coffee franchise that offered equal - or almost equal - benefits to him? If the answer is a 'No'; then this is what we need to correct, or begin to correct, above and beyond just 'boycotting' and hoping we do our bit.

Economic clout's got to be only one part of the story. What economic clout we do have is far higher than you might expect, it's still based on fossil fuels — considering the fact that Americans and the West in general are waking up to the idea that hey, maybe fossil fuels won't last forever, that maybe they need to get rid of that dependency to oil…

Oil's not a long-term relationship.

T-boy, nothing's really permanent - manufacturing used to be "it", then it was IT, now it's biotech, services etc... but oil has had the longest staying power so far.

Not to be biased, I kinda liked how the founders of PETRONAS positioned its role in developing Malaysia's resources, as opposed to other national oil companies who were content to act as mere landlords...

Yeah, well, neither the IT industry nor the biotech industry came with a timer that said, “Will be completely useless in 100 years”… :D

No, but it also doesn't have an actual useful growth lifespan of 5 years...

And at the rate we're going, I don't think it will be complete useless, it may run out by then, but it doesn't mean our dependence on it will be reduced. As much as we think alternative energy is around the corner, the reality is far from it. But that's a totally different discussion for another day...

If we can't even leverage on oil in the 'short' time we have it, what hope do we have on something more 'long-term'?

Maybe the problem isn't with us leveraging or not leveraging our economic assets in the first place.

Point of clarification: are we all assuming that there is even a monolithic Muslim/Islamic society out there who all share the same values, opinions, judgements, world views etc. etc., enough to bring about said revolution in world politics and economics?!?

Dude. Thanks for bringing that up. :D

wanna start boycotting US/Israeli stuff/goods/stuff related to them etc, start by boycotting your good old Windows XP however pirated they are.

Oh yeah, don't forget about cancelling all ur yahoo emails, or cancel your overseas hosting company coz their 'somewhat' related to US and ultimately related to Israel.

the list can go on forever.

Sigh.

I agree with you Jikon - for as long as there is no 'united' front; there will be no revolution of any kind.

It's not a revolution of a gregarious scale that I really thinking about; but as sort of an addendum to the boycott idea. We have so many people urging us to boycott this and that; but do we offer alternatives, is my argument.

If one really feels strongly about boycotting products, then perhaps one should also consider developing alternatives so that one would not be worse off as a result of these boycotts.

Taking up the computing analogy hafiz put forth, if we were boycotting Microsoft products and there was to be no Apple / Linux operating systems - do we then decide to go computer-less and lose out in the bigger picture? Of course not. We strive to develop alternatives. So in due course, with all the calls for boycotts that various parties preach, there must also be calls for developing alternatives, if you really want to mean business.

This goes beyond lines of religion; although in line with the post, I put forth my arguments on that basis.

It’s a continuation and answers to the previous thread (Would you). Not sure if I should reply here. Anyway here it goes:

Najah/Idlan/Resident:
I did ask them, some understood but don't care, some really don't care and some understood but circumstances supersede their judgement (like me, because the defence and aviation industries are still the best place to learn engineering and physics). Even those physicists that were part of the Manhattan project were aware of the consequences, but the Generals and people who control it after never did. The finance and banking industries are guilty too, but there are alternatives for those who choose not to get involve (albeit a difficult one).

But for the oil, defence and to some extent the lifestyle and service industries (referring to Nike, Starbucks, Monsanto, Shell etc.), their business practice had clearly hurt many physically and emotionally. In the US and Canada, a corporation is legally an individual. However, none that I know ever get punishment matching the wrongdoing they commit. For example, when a Nike subcontractor literally imprisoned and abused their workers, the company simply and legally deny any responsibilities and do not pay anything. Even though it’s brilliant outsourcing strategies that encourage the practice. Shell complained to the Nigerian govt about the demonstrators at their oil field, which resulted in a few human right activists being hanged. IBM designed punch card machines and provide the first IT infrastructure for the Nazis that make genocide very efficient. No doubt some of these companies do great things for many and some of their products are very useful for us. But as an individual, they should be treated like one. They cannot do things just because they can, then hide it behind obscure laws (like Free trade). There must be more accountability. They have so much of everything.

I was mistaken with the price of oil. But it is still super high. As for Petronas, I can't think of anything else but its sales of oil. I don't believe its ingenious business strategy nor does efficiency contribute significantly to its multi billion-dollar profits. Please let me know if I'm completely wrong again. In Malaysia petrol is subsidized, this practice is hurting the poor directly. The company does not employ enough for its profit to trickle down to the truly needy. Most goes to the govt coffers. Do you think many cares where the money goes after? How much did we spend for the Iraqis? I’m sure it’s small. I don’t think the kuli at petrol stations get as much bonus as Petronas employee either.

Where I live now, petrol is heavily taxed, approx 35% of the price. I disagree with the amount but fully understand the reason. The petrol stations up here do not benefit from the high price; in fact some are losing money through price war between the big multinationals vs. independent stations. Guess who’s winning. For the past few weeks the price has jump approx 20%. It does not hurt me, my lifestyle nor the average drivers in the country. In fact I don’t care if it hurt the drivers. They are just luxury items for many. Hopefully soon this will force me to leave my car too.

The way I see it, very few benefits when the oil price is high, both inside and outside our country. It’s a scarce resource control by the very few. Those that do not have control will do anything at any cost to get it. Petronas is just like a mini Saudi Arabia or Kuwait and its sheikhs, a super powerful and untouchable institution. How hard can it be to sell when they can set the price almost without any consequences? I will salute Petronas if it sell below the price set by the market or go against OPEC. To me petroleum is energy. Everyone needs it for survival. It’s not a resource for profit making or worse control and power.

Also I’m interested in individual opinion and ideas rather than the masses. I have and will read the books, newspapers and watch TV for that collective opinion given by the experts. There are very few independent experts anyway. I don’t want a repeat of what’s out there. Like I said previously, some make sense, but most are just numbers and economic facts. Hard to connect them and the messed up faces I see everyday. I’m trying to free my mind of material/emotional/social influences, be rational and more aware of my everyday actions. May be it is ironic that I write of personal conscience, in a somewhat public space and hoping for the benefit of many from individuals. But I truly believe that an individual action and ideas that normally make the difference and promote change. A group with the same ideas and actions corrupt too easily (good for having fun though). Plus as of now I can’t think of anyone or anything else to blame for the mess. I hope this make sense.

Do I sound pathetic, corny, shallow, pseudo intellect? Oh crap.

BTW I'm an aerospace engineer. We make and sell aviation and marine products to commercial and military sectors. We never seem to earn enough for the stockholders. I like the opportunity to learn, so I do not complain too much even after being taxed at 40%. My guess is you are in the IT business.

Idlan - you're really driving home this "alternatives" argument, aren't you?!? Well... thank God for men. Otherwise I would actually have to have sexual relations with women... urgh! *grin*

Jikon: And THAT would be THE day, no?

Hehehe.

Rhomerc: Your views on oil are utopian. Anyway, I think you're doing our national oil company a great disrespect by equating it to the sheikhs. Although I'm no longer with the company, I have seen the kind of effort that goes into the profits the company makes, and it's not through a simplistic outright sale, rather a series of elaborate business transactions that enable us to reap its benefits more than any other national oil and gas company. Refer to "A Vision Realised" (forgot who wrote it), but it's an account of how the company made its mark.

Based on what I DO know, there were so many ways in which we could have gone the sheikh and Pertamina paths, which we have not. This includes our joint ventures, insistance on knowledge transfer and not profit-sharing, diversification strategies (note that Petronas is not just oil and gas sales - MISC is one example), etc.

On the other point:

I think there are varying degrees as to what we can live with in regards to where we earn our living. As with any moral yardstick, there is no absolute value. Perhaps if we want a truly "disinfected" existence, we should all be teachers. =)

Perhaps there will be obvious cases - e.g. how could a Muslim earn a living from Carlsberg, or how could someone live with himself knowing he just sold missiles to Israel. And then there are the grey areas, grey depending on how far the chain goes.

It's good that you're curious about how others feel. But what I don't find constructive is where this trail is leading, the idea that there is a clear moral demarcation in the fundamentals of a capitalist economy - that people make money from other people. Perhaps what you are now questioning is how much money is considered morally acceptable?

Following on that thread, given that I'm in IT (with an indirect link to oil, because we get oil industry projects), can I ask the question of you - how can you reconcile your conscience with the fact that the systems your company builds have a high likelihood of having a role to play in the absolute destructions of third world countries?

Correction: Petronas had to bail out MISC.

FYI, as a Petronas Scholar we get a lot more than others. That's not to mention the computer loan that we got which I cleverly used to swicth to Mac.

Most of Petronas' profit are used to explore new oil fields. That means profits are used to gain even more profits. Having said that, the management "up there" between the Board and the Govt is still not as black and white as one wish it would be.

HansW: Correction, to bail is to pay up debts without any interest to expand, like a parent who bails out a child's credit card bills. I too have read the emails and opposition literature during the time the KPB-MISC-Petronas relationship was set in concrete.

In MISC's case, it was more of a business transformation exercise to ensure that MISC continues to grow. You can refer to back issues of the Edge where they covered MISC's journey prior to its acquisition of Eagle.

All,

I tend to agree with Jikon, that all of this span much further than it just simply is. Economies are such, however you look at it and in whichever angle there is mention of money. There is a reason why people say "Money Makes The World Go Round", in however simplistic way it does. To solve the problem, shouldent we "boycott" banks too? Money have a way of supporting the undesirables? Is it the root of all evil then?

Boycotts impact people, some innocent some not. However yet there is a cry to "be specific" but how do we know the money we earn has not once flowed through undesirable hands as well as generated through undesirable means?

We have to remember, the money supply in the world is not created on demand. It is in "fixed" supply, just very liquid and flowing.

It all boils down to what level of detail the argument is going to be brought to. After which, as Najah puts it what "moral yardstick" will we use to gauge it. Even in this discussion, there are differing opinions that "float" at different levels. I believe the context is deeper than the industries that were mentioned here. Such is the nature of international trade and the mechanics of micro-economics. Who is to say what is relevant and what is not? How will we be sure that we are right to start with? Maybe that is why there is no "united" front.

It all boils down to personal values and choice. Your own and not imposing it on others. Different people have different needs, resulting in different decisions.

Rhomer, even in the "sweat shops" in the 3rd World countries, the people get paid more than their domestic economies can manage. They do so because of choice, they need the money to feed their families. I agree there is exploitation here, but who are we to judge what acceptable.

I just dont think it is fair to generalize, mainly because there is just too many differing opinions and the depth of it al is just too deep. Taking pure economics, it is purely supply and demand, personally it may be exploitation, to a corporate it may be business strategy.

Personally, just do what you think is right so that your concience is clear, it does not matter if the masses do the same. That is all that is important.

Can I just add to the sweat shop argument which Fische brought up:

Should we be in England, for instance, and hear of a person earning the equivalent of £1 a day in Third World country, we would be outraged, for the minimum wage in England is about 4 or 5 times that. But in terms of purchasing power for that person in his country, he may well be able to feed his family for a week.

Also, to draw the same arguments from a white-collar perspective: let's say a Malaysian worker who has served his company for say.. 5-6 years, is aged 28 or 29, earns a pay packet of RM5000/month. That, to many, is a good packet to take home. Translate that into £ without considering the purchasing power of RM1, and you will get approximately £750; and to put that into perspective, the average fresh graduate with a degree would earn about £1000 - £1250 during their first year of work.

So like Fische said, there are many levels of the analysis which we really need to think about (it's the reason why PhDs in Economics / Finance still have a job!) and we can't just use one general rule to explain it all and hope it ends there.

P/S Rhomer: Have you asked the petrol station owners and their staff about what they think of the oil price increase?

this has nothing to do with the discussion. Najah, i was staring at your head picture on your blog and i couldn't see the Dock on your iBook. did you cut the screenshot from a PC?

Something about the increase in the price of petrol and correct me if I'm wrong. Price to public goes up and government subsidy goes down. No?

The subsidy doesn't go to consumers, they go to the petrol companies. If so, then Petronas is not making more money from the increase bcos a corresponding decrease of the subsidy would also occur. By reducing subsidy, the government is making the petrol consumers pay more instead of asking the whole tax-paying bunch of citizens to pay (whether they be drivers or not).

How this increase in Malaysian petrol price can affect the peace process in Palestine-Israel or forward the cause for Islam is a bit beyond me :-)

HansW,

The dock only appears when you mouse over the bottom part of the screen..

Very well said Idlan. I totally agree with Idlan. Well, to the matters that she mentioned above withregard boycotte. And thanks to blog owner, Najah, for reminding me to seek knowledge. Really, I just have to admit that, I wasn't been brought up in social science stream. And of course, I have all the interest to learn about economics etc only after I know about Islam, only after I learn to be true Muslim. And really I just found of the truth meaning of being muslim few years back. And am really workign hard to offer an alternative (as Idlan mentioned above) in electronics. I can't be Jack of all trade but master in none. Insya-Allah with Allah will hopefully I will offer help to ummah, an alternative. I doesn't take just 2/3 years for America to be where it is... it's over hundred years... So lets ponder... what is our contribution to the alternative? Sorry again, if any of my words hurt anyone, probably there are ways to put things in better ways, so that it won't be hurtful to others, the least I want to do is to hurt anyone, which I think I might have. Sorry again.

the truth is im part of the people who are responsible in killing of the muslim or any other people who oppose US/Israel indirectly.

im working with a company that has a huge stake in developing warheads and submarines and all other military stuff which US are building/using/researching.

but does that means im all into killing innocent life as well? i dont think so. god says that we shoud seek knowledge and god also says that we need to learn from whoever if that 'ilmu' will be good for ummah, be it Jews / Nazi / Aliens for that matter. as long as you are learning something and you have the conscience that what you are doing now is for the betterment of the future then so be it.

therefore, boycotting any of these would not be any good to us if we havent got the full knowledge and know-how from these people/companies.

Najah&Gang,

Just as I thought it’s all over, you guys keep pulling me back in. Never write so much on social issues, I’m having persistence headache. Is that normal?

On the other hand, my view is indeed utopian, even naïve. It is because the problem (our dependent on fossil fuel) has been made very complex by the establishment and trivialize by the media. The result is we have been condition to just follow, and told that fossil fuel is the key to our success. I prefer to be free of that. It’s utopia in my head and will try to live by it.

It is very difficult to be teachers. I really respect the profession, one of the few jobs I don’t make fun off.

My interest in other people personal view is partly explained above. In my opinion, when someone asks personal questions about how ethical our everyday actions are, then I think we should comments based on personal view too. Especially since many seem to agree that there are others who will be affected by the actions. It’s good to have facts and ideas from the experts, some are easily available too, but often we take them too literally. For example, when we talk about boycotts, I think it is more interesting to find out how many will actually do it. Who cares if it works or not. History is already full of facts on the result. If it changes someone after doing it, then it’s worth mentioning. Would it be more fun if Idlan goes and talk to the guy/gal that own a Starbuck and discuss the merit of owning one and tell us about it. I can’t stand it when people discuss on how great their life are, their concern for the unfortunate and environment etc. but complain about traffic jam, the weather and why their bosses makes a lot more money.

When I asked the questions to my friends in the military division, many are actually amazed that I even ask. I told you of their answers. The ones that care are quite ashamed to discuss the result of their work. Some have their own ways of dealing with the guilt. The ones that don’t care, never shows their concern, and I think that’s honesty. I don’t judge any of them, because it’s their choice and I respect that. When people give personal answer, it I get a glimpse of who the person is and often reflect the masses if enough participate. Then anyone can evaluate and make their own judgement.

Idlan/TiFische/maybelater:
I’m sure you know how much profit a giant corporation can make if it pays its employee a dollar a day? If that’s enough to support a family of five for a week in Cambodia then imagine what two dollar can do. I’m sure that won’t kill off Nike. It’s not just about the salary, but also how they are treated. There are well documented facts regarding this issues and why it happens. I believe this is one moral standard we can impose on corporations, not the people. Finally my personal question would be how you guys think personally. So mr. maybelater, do you have a piece of your work being use in the warhead? Do they let you know whenever one hit a target :-). As for me, it isn’t being used in any military product yet. I know it’s inevitable, but it’s not anything deadly. Though it can make a weapon hits more target. Not sure how to feel when that happen.

Lastly, I hope no one think that I'm trying to impose a standard on how to make comments. It is not and I'm sorry if I offend anyone.

Rhomer,

Good to see you back. Perhaps it would be good to get you, Jikon, Fische and Idlan for coffee (granted that all of us are in different parts of the world, except for Jikon and I) for a discussion on this topic.

BTW, I never made fun of the teaching profession, merely pointing out the fact that there are not that many professions out there that can truly claim it is free from moral questions of who we trample when we earn our living (and hence the quandry we all find ourselves in, including those in the oil, weapons, finance, coffee etc industry).

On your last point, I think several of us have made the same point, that ethical and moral yardsticks are subjective. Even when it comes to how we each practice our religion (e.g. for Muslims, how often we pray, whether we do it on time, do we guard our mouths and ears from gossip, fasting, levels of fasting, zakat etc etc etc), there are varying degrees of what we can live with as individuals, of course, with a bare minimum as set by our respective scriptures.

Whether or not someone else feels guilty that they're 4 hops away from that bullet that killed a child in Palestine is a question of personal conscience. It's either you decide to get involved to influence that person or not. That decision depends on you. From your questions, it looks like you would like to influence and impose, eventhough you have stated that you don't pass judgement. Else why would you find it interesting to find out how many actually participate in boycotts? Does your interest stem from wanting to look at the effectiveness of the method, or rather to look at what motivates a person to NOT want to participate?

I am of the firm belief that in most cases, one shouldn't blame the person. If someone doesn't care (about whatever cause), asking them why they're apathetic will only be counter-productive to the cause that you care about so much.

But perhaps we all have different worldviews, which is great.

By the way, no need to apologise if you've offended anyone. If you have, you have. If you haven't, you haven't. ;-)

By the way, this all reminds me of what once heard people (read:Malays) say when I was younger.

"Tak boleh jadi arkitek, nanti kena buat panggung wayang, hotel... kalau orang buat maksiat kat situ, kita yang tanggung dosa..."

rhomer
answering ur Q : no.
as i mentioned earlier my company has a 'huge stake' in these companies. that means we dont get involve into making/producing the weapon but the profit we earn (from offshore contruction) will eventually reach to those companies.

on how do i feel, well at times when you see the news and you know you are involve indirectly it makes one ponder for awhile. but if i dont learn from these ppl how would i help local companies (if i could) to improve in the future?

btw, ur not imposing anything to anybody. but in any form of discussion we will learn from each other and for most of ppl here, i wd say its been a healthy discussion.

Najah, got one more seat free ka? ;)

fedora core 2 linux can be installed onto a Macintosh

One thing I do not do is judge or tries to impose my values on others. Oh no. It’s on top of the list of things I don’t do. I think many concern readers are turn off by typical discussion on issues because it’s has become too common place and many know nothing will be achieved from it. Typically there are a few who will get too emotional then personal insults starts flying around splattering everyone.

My interest is on individuals who have spoken out and to challenge them into doing something about issues they believe in. Real action an individual can/will do or has done. For example, you buying that French made product because you believe part of your money will go into something good. It doesn’t convince me to do the same but I respect your action. On the issue of boycott, I’m trying hard to avoid fast food and fancy coffee shops (especially big franchises). I can (and will if anyone ask) list all my reasons, but that’s just common argument, the main point here is that I did it. I will argue but never judge people who act on what they believe in.

Another thing is, when one wrote about his/her own experience, sometime we get a glimpse of their everyday life. A while back I read articles about anti globalization written by a local activist. He writes in his spare time and also helps organize peaceful protest. His articles present a moderate view and do so in a way that makes sense to me. From his writings I also learn that he’s an engineer with a wife, kids and live a regular life. That extra info brings the issue of globalization closer to me (I actually met him through friends at work and that’s how I ended up watching tear gas canisters flying overhead).

On other notes, of course we need many participants and “united front” to achieve something big, but to me that’s what the government and NGOs are there for. There are many places out there, both on and off the net, where we can go and argue with the masses to achieve our goal on issues. In here I thought it would be nice to read a person experience when he/she visits those places or things he/she does out there. I thought this is why a personal web logs exist.

Finally, if we ever meet for coffee, I suggest we find the saddest looking coffee shop or stall in the poorest part of KL, dress up in typical clothes we wear to those fancy dinners.

Idlan/TheOtherDude,
I never spoke to a petrol station owners or their employee. But I know that in my city, the price of petrol to consumers approximately made up of :

Price = (govt tax (35%)) + (price of oil, refinery, overhead, transport(60%)) + petrol station owner (5% or less). The petrol station owners (especially the independent ones) hate high prices because many ill inform customers put the blame on them. I don’t know how it works back home.